| Author |
Message |
Bert Hager (Bert_x)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 7:16 pm: | |
I have a Mac computer, so can't play any of the 'Pretty Good Solitaire' games, but would still like to help people at this forum.
Black Hole is one of my favorite solitaires in Freeverse Software's games. At their online website, I have the most solutions (more than 740) and highest winning percentage of 92% after 2 years of playing.
Simply show me a list, here in this thread, of the cards in the 17 piles of a Black Hole game that you want solved. I will post the solution back here. I love a challenge --- most deals are too easy for me to solve.
Can anyone provide the cards layout for Black Hole #1000? That was one that posters had mentioned as not solved before.
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Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 802
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 3:11 am: | |
Layout for game 1000,
9S,10S,6H---KH,JC,KS---QS,9C,8S---QD,2S,QH---9H,10 D,10H.
5H,4D,3C---3D,3S,9D---10C,6C,7C---KD,6S,7S
JS,4S,7H---6D,4C,JD---4H,5C,3H---JH,8C,2H
KC,AD,8D---8H,2D,QC---5S,7D,2C---5D,AH,AC
plus AS in hole. |
Bert Hager (Bert_x)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
Thanks for the layout for #1000. Most solutions to Black Hole solitaire deals involve reverses of direction and usually those are done in pairs -- so reversing on a 8 going up must later be followed by a reverse on an 8 while going down. I made 3 pairs of reversals (on 8s, 7s, 3s) in my solution to Black Hole #1000. Each reverse is shown on a separate line below to make them clearer to see.
->KC-QD-JS-TC-9S-
->8H-9H-TS-JH-QS-KH-AD-2D-3D-4S-5D-6C-7C-8C-9C-TD- JC-QC-KD-AH-2S-3S-4H-5C-6D-
->7H-6S-5H-4C-
->3H-4D-5S-6H-7D-
->8D-
->7S-8S-9D-TH-JD-QH-KS-AC-2C-
->3C-2H/
A very good example to study and learn how to solve these.
Does anyone else have another unsolved Black Hole deal?
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Jeff Dunn (Jdunnpm)
Solitaire Player
Username: Jdunnpm
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
Sorry Bert,
Since you don't have our game, you didn't realize the left-to-right sequences Richard gave you reflect the dealing order. Therefore in the 9S-10S-6H sequence, the 6H is the first available card to play.
Could you solve it again for us?
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Bert Hager (Bert_x)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Yes, Jeff, I thought that Richard was showing me the card stacks from top-to-bottom not in a card dealt sequence. In Free Verse Software's version, the cards just suddenly appear like that instead of being dealt.
Now solving Black Hole #1000 is just a matter of finding the correct point at which to reverse direction, from playing the cards in an up sequence to going down. Continuing up too long would be wrong because we have to remove two negative stacks with 7-6 top cards (they have to be played in a down direction). This had to be done before the 2nd King is played, too -- so reversing on the 2nd Jack makes the rest of the play easy.
->AS-2H-3C-4D-5H-6H-7H-8C-9D-TS-JD-QC-KS-AC-2C-3H- 4C-5C-6D-7D-8D-9S-TH-
->JC-TD-9H-8S-7C-6C-5S-4S-3S-2D-AH-KH-QH-JH-TC-9C- 8H-7S-6S-5D-4H-3D-2S-AD-KC-QD-
->JS-QS-KD/
Hope that shows some insight into how Black Hole deals are played. Not as hard as most people think. In fact, about 91% of random deals have solutions!!
I'll still try to solve any other deals that players are having trouble with -- just post them here.
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Jeff Dunn (Jdunnpm)
Solitaire Player
Username: Jdunnpm
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:55 pm: | |
Interesting, Bert ...
Now here's a strategy statement I got off the web. Is there anything you can add to it? Is what it says correct?
"If two stacks of varying height have the same rank on top, usually remove the card from the stack with more cards. Never move a card from a stack with only one card if there is a stack with multiple cards with the identical rank on top. At the start of a game find thirteen cards which are needed to complete a cycle and determine whether adding cards to the black hole in ascending or descending order makes more sense.
After 13, 26 and 39 cards have been sent to the black hole the order of ranks can be changed to ascending to descending or vice versa. Changing the order at any other time will result in an unwinnable game.
If adding cards in ascending order, try to remove cards from stacks which have cards with greater ranks on top. If going in descending order, select stacks which have greater ranks below."
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Jeff Dunn (Jdunnpm)
Solitaire Player
Username: Jdunnpm
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
And here's a game for you, Bert: 134633137. |
Bert Hager (Bert_x)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 8:13 pm: | |
Jeff, in response to your last post, you will have to post all of the cards in that deal #1463137, the same way that Richard did for a deal earlier in this thread. I don't have PGS because it doesn't play on my Mac computer. But, show me the cards and I will solve it for you.
About your other post -- I've seen that same advice, too. Most of that is OK, but two of those tips are bad and one is absolutely wrong.
About those tips, I'll add some comments and then post a much better playing guide for Black Hole in a following post.
1) "If two stacks of varying height have the same rank on top", it would be BAD to simply play from the higher stack. It is much more important to consider whether the #2 card below will be a useful card. There is no gain in uncovering another 6, for example, if two are already on top of other stacks.
2) "Never move a card from a stack with only one card if there is a stack with multiple cards with the identical rank on top." Yes, this is always true.
3) "At the start of a game find thirteen cards which are needed to complete a cycle and determine whether adding cards to the black hole in ascending or descending order makes more sense." Yes, starting off in the wrong direction (against the direction that most #1 and #2 card patterns in the stacks are pointing) is like trying to swim upstream against a strong current.
4) "After 13, 26 and 39 cards have been sent to the black hole the order of ranks can be changed from ascending to descending or vice versa." Well, the Aces won't always be the 13th/26th/39th cards played, but, yes you can change direction on Aces without worrying about fixing that reverse later.
5) BOGUS -> "Changing the order at any other time will result in an unwinnable game." Nonsense, about 70% of Black Hole solutions have reverses of the sequence direction on cards beside the Aces. You just have to reverse twice on those cards.
6) "If adding cards in ascending order, try to remove cards from stacks which have cards with greater ranks on top." No, playing to release cards close in rank to the one on top of a stack is not the most important thing to consider. See my comment to #1.
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Bert Hager (Bert_x)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 8:55 pm: | |
A simple Black Hole playing strategy.
Several posters in this forum have said that they dislike playing the solitaire game Black Hole because it requires too much forward planning (looking many moves ahead, like chess). Not always true!! I will show a set of simple steps that will allow anyone to win about 30% of Black Hole deals with NO forwarding planning at all. None. Nada. Zero. Zip.
I also will just briefly touch on some more advanced strategies, at the end, that I've learned after solving 760 games now.
Black Hole deals can sometimes be solved simply by always making the best choice between 2 or more possible cards to play.
Step 1) If the same card is available to be played from two or more stacks -- never play from the stack that has only one card in it. Playing from the mult-card stack will uncover a new card, playing the single card would not help for future plays.
Step 2) If the same card is available to be played from two or more multi-card stacks -- look at the #2 card that would be uncovered in each stack and count the number of times that #2 card is already showing at the top of stacks. Play from the stack that has the lower number count.
Step 3) If the same number count was found for the cards that would be uncovered in step 2, then look at the #3 cards below (if there are any). Count the number of times that #3 card is already showing at the top of stacks. Play from the stack that has the lower number count. If a stack has just two cards, then the #3 card count is obviously zero.
Step 4) If the #3 card count was zero in all those stacks, at step 3, then play from the stack that has more cards in it.
Step 5) If the counts were found the same in steps 2 and 3, and the stacks are the same height, then compare the top card and next card in each of those stacks. Play from the stack that has a #2 card which would be needed sooner in future play in the current sequence direction.
Sometimes, step 5 may need to be considered before step 4, if the #2 card is needed urgently to continue the playing sequence.
Assuming that following steps 1 through 5 allowed you to play from the stacks until about 16 cards remain, stop at that time and look at the remaining multi-card stacks. If they are all pointing in the same direction that the sequence is going, then just continue playing to the end. You will win about 20% of games this way!
But, if they all point in the opposite direction, then a reverse on the last Ace will allow you to finish in the opposite direction. Occasionally, a reverse on a King (when going up) or a reverse on a 2 (when going down) will allow a finish, too.
Other times, there may be no way to end on, for example, a King when going up because either Kings or Queens are missing from the bottom of all stacks. Then a simple “knot” will remove them earlier, play ->Q-K-Q-K-> and the final sequence can end on a Jack instead.
Most solutions to Black Hole deals require some reversals. If you were forced to change the direction of your playing sequence at some time earlier, then reverse direction again on that same card when the 4th one is played. This will often be the correct time to fix that problem. Remember, most reverses must be corrected by another reverse on that same card!
I have never seen some of these playing tips for Black Hole mentioned anywhere before. I hope it enables players to solve more Black Hole games. Let me know if it helped you!
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Jeff Dunn (Jdunnpm)
Solitaire Player
Username: Jdunnpm
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 1:37 pm: | |
Sorry Bert, here is game 134633137. Play cards from right to left.
TS,3C,TH--KH,4H,KS--2D,JD,6H--3S,KC,JS--5D,JC,7C
KD,9C,9S--QC,2C,8D------------5H,9H,9D--4D,AH,QH
5C,7H,AC--TC,7S,8C-----AS-----6D,TD,8H--8S,3D,4C
5S,2H,JH--QS,4S,AD-------------2S,6S,3H--QD,7D,6C |
Bert Hager (Bert_x)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:21 pm: | |
Thanks for the challenge, Jeff -- solving Black Hole #134633137 was a real toughie!!
Sequence has to start down, of course, because there are no 2s to go up with. We are forced to reverse on the first 6 because no 5s can be made available (they're all on the bottom of stacks). That reversal is a good thing because most of the stacks are positive (the top 2 cards are pointing in an up direction) so we need to build in that direction as much as possible.
The big problem is how to eventually finish. Although there are Ks and Qs on bottom of stacks to use at the very end, a Jack isn't (two middle Js, with 2 or 5 underneath).
I fixed that by playing a pair of knots near the end, ->T-J-T-J-> and ->Q-K-Q-K->, to get rid of the last Ts, Js, Qs, Ks before the final sequence. But, that created another problem because, now, I couldn't finish on a 9 or even a 7. So I had to do a similiar thing with 6s, 7s, 8s and 9s. Finally a solution was possible by ending on a 5.
->KS-QD-JH-TH-9D-8H-7C-
->6H-7D-8C-
->9H-
->8D-9S-TD-JS-QH-KC-AC-2C-3H-4H-5H-6S-
->7H-6C-5C-4C-3C-2H-
->AH-2S-3D-4S-5S-6D-7S-8S-9C-TC-
->JC-
->TS-JD-QC-KD-
->QS-KH-AH-2H-3S-4D-5D/
What do think of that, Jeff? Can you or someone else show me another tough Black Hole deal?
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Jeff Dunn (Jdunnpm)
Solitaire Player
Username: Jdunnpm
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:37 pm: | |
Sorry Bert, the QD is an illegal move. The 6C and 7D are on top of it. |
Bert Hager (Bert_x)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 12:43 pm: | |
Oh, drat! I am so embarassed! Thought that I double checked to be sure that I set the stacks up in my layout as a dealt pattern -- but I went in top-down order on that 17th stack. Sorry.
Correcting the order of that stack didn't help to reach a simpler solution for Black Hole #134633137, however. Same problems as discussed in my last post and the solution is the very same pattern, just with different suit cards in the sequence.
->AS-KS-QH-JH-TH-9D-8H-7C-
->6C-7D-8C-
->9H-8D-
->9S-TD-JS-QD-KC-AC-2C-3H-4H-5H-6S-
->7H-6H-5C-4C-3C-2H-
->AD-2S-3D-4S-5S-6D-7S-8S-9C-TC-
->JC-TS-
->JD-QC-KD-
->QS-KH-AH-2D-3S-4D-5D/
Not a pretty solution (9 reverses), but I tried and failed to find anything better.
By the way, there used to be a good website about Black Hole strategies by Peter Voke. It is gone now, but maybe you can still find something about his ideas.
Nowadays, I seem to be one of the top players in this solitaire game and I'm trying to share some tips so others can learn to play better.
Got a another Black Hole to solve, anyone? |
Jeff Dunn (Jdunnpm)
Solitaire Player
Username: Jdunnpm
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 7:30 pm: | |
Hi Bert,
Your advice has been excellent, and I'm now winning many games in a row. Here's one that's slowed me down a bit (#1202840704):
KH,6D,KD--JH,3C,AH--QH,9S,TS--AD,6H,9D--JC,8S,QD
7C,5S,5D--7S,2D,AC------------5C,6C,TC--JC,JS,8D
TH,2C,QS--QC,4D,3D-----AS-----2H,5H,KS--9H,8C,3S
7D,4C,7H--KC,TD,3H------------8H,2S,4S--6S,9C,4H
I'm having trouble with the 9s.
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Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 11:04 pm: | |
Hi guys. Take a look at this one. Hope I get the format right. Game #64701417.
2H,AH,2S--3H,8D,8S--3S,3D,3C--4S,2C,9S--5D,2D,8H
5S,7C,10D--4C,KH,QH-------------KS,QC,AD--JH,4H,7D
10C,JC,9C,--5H,6C,10H-----AS-----6S,6D,QS--9H,JS,6 H
4D,10S,9D--KC,7S,AC--8C,KD,JD--7H,5C,QD
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Bert Hager (Bert_x)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:31 pm: | |
Reply to Mike Butler about Black Hole #64701417. In this layout it is impossible to release a King to make a sequence going down and there is no way to get at a Four when going up.
So, the best play sequence is ->AC-2S-AH-2H-3C and then you're stuck --- there is no solution. About 8% of Black Hole deals are dead-ends very quickly. In fact, about 2% have no possible card plays at all (no King or Deuce on top of any stacks).
To Jeff Dunn about Black Hole #1202840704. First, there was a mistake in your layout because it had two Jack of Clubs (on the bottom of 5th and 9th stacks). One should have been the missing Jack of Diamonds -- I assumed it was in stack 9. Otherwise just switch the JC and JD cards in my solution.
->AS-KD-QS-
->KS-AC-2D-3S-4H-5H-6D-7H-8D-9D-TC-JS-QD-KH-AH-2C- 3C-4C-5D-6H-7D-8C-9C-TS-JD-
->TH-9S-8S-7S-6C-5S-4S-3H-2S-AD-
->2H-3D-4D-5C-6S-7C-8H-9H-TD-JC-QC-KC-
->QH-JH/
The first reverse was forced, on the QS, and then playing the sequence up as long as possible we reach another forced reverse on the JD. But, by that time, the stacks can easily be played to the finish. This solution was possible just by following my simple playing rules that I listed in an earlier post. Wish that you had showed me your sequence so I could see where you ran into a problem with 9s. I couldn't figure out where you went wrong.
This solution is very unusual in the fact that the none of the four reverses (A, J, Q, K) are balanced out with another on the same card. Ace never needs one and King-up reverse doesn't either. The Queen and Jack reverses created an "extra" of each (compared to other cards in the deck), but they were simply played in the end sequence. A good lesson in another advanced strategy. Sometimes reverses don't have to be fixed!!
Jeff, I am so pleased to hear that my playing tips have helped you so much. Maybe you can show me a nice solution that you've worked out. Might be interesting.
I'm teaching by examples here, and it seems to be working. So --- any more challenging Black Hole layouts? I will solve and explain it, too.
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Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 142
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:36 pm: | |
I have a gift for finding unsolvable deals. It looked like it to me. |
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