Freecell challenge

Here is a challenge- anyone accomplishing it gets my warmest personal regards.

Freecell #38016 and #68289 but you CAN NOT USE THE FREECELLS, ample use of the worryback moves
will be needed.
An example is attached- #35561

I have assurance that these are solvable with worryback and no freecells, but the solutions have
eluded me for years.

Good luck (and god speed)
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FreeCell_35561buwb.pgs
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Comments

  • edited February 18 Member, Beta Tester
    Unless I misunderstood the challenge Larry, 38016 was accomplished in a couple of minutes. :-?
    EDIT
    Are you only allowing single card moves?
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    FreeCell_38016.pgs
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  • Member, Beta Tester
    Ok, What is worryback???
  • Member
    Richard,

    Yes only single card moves (like the freecells did not exist) allowed, thus worryback- which is moving cards back from the foundations to
    the tableau - is needed to get a solution- see example #35561 above.
  • edited February 19 Member, Beta Tester
    Yes Larry, I should have consulted your upload before I made my post. Always in too much of a hurry.
    Interesting challenges. Thanks.
    I can get to 13 with 38016 so far. I had a quick look at the other one late last night and could empty two columns, but to no real effect. Will have another go at them both.
    EDIT
    14 with 68289 is my best so far.
  • Member
    Here is a list of the same scenario- no use of freecells and ample use of worryback- that Dr. Tom Holroyd's
    patsolve Freecell solving program did not reach a conclusion on- may be winnable. The ones marked with
    a # I have been able to solve.

    #883
    #892
    #1012
    #3225
    #4272
    #5055
    #5814
    #5877
    #6893
    #7018
    #7058
    #7167
    #8491
    #11747
    #12392
    #12897
    #14731
    #15140
    #17871
    #19023
    #22511
    #24176
    #24733
    #24919
    #25001
    #27962
    #30510 #
    #30584
    #31975
    #33504
    #33710
    #33949
    #34898
    #38066
    #40616
    #41795
    #42602 #
    #47774
    #48689
    #49923
    #51232
    #52554
    #56070
    #57035
    #58844
    #59974
    #61047
    #62487
    #62799
    #63532
    #64877
    #65568
    #68012
    #69224
    #71779
    #72288
    #73158 #
    #77549
    #77918
    #79693
    #81016 #
    #81391
    #83672
    #85649 #
    #86783
    #86949 #
    #87101
    #87933
    #87983
    #88782
    #88909
    #89557
    #89666
    #90139
    #93648
    #93730
    #93826
    #94472
    #96924
    #97456
    #99673
  • Member
    Should have included #90139 as winnable also.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    I think I've got one of them Larry.
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    FreeCell_892-won-check.pgs
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  • Member, Beta Tester
    This would appear to be another one Larry. Looks like the old brain hasn't atrophied completely yet. :)
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    FreeCell_7018-check.pgs
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  • edited February 23 Member, Beta Tester
    Look's like the Doctor's solver is by no means perfect. Both of us have winners that the software missed.
    I'll try the higher numbers at some point. Reaching PGS saturation point again.
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  • Member, Beta Tester
    Another one.
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    FreeCell_38066-won.pgs
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  • Member, Beta Tester
    Dear Dr. Holroyd, about your solving software ......... old guys are doing a better job. ;))
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    FreeCell_40616_yawn.pgs
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  • Member
    Major blunder on my part- I included the questionable games Dr. Tom's solver didn't reach a
    conclusion but other solvers did find were winners- without worryback.

    Here is amended list which should prove less of a yawn. *** indicates the ones I was able to solve.
    These will need worryback if they can be solved.

    #883
    #4272
    #8491
    #11747
    #12897
    #14731
    #19023
    #22511
    #24733
    #27962
    #30510 ***
    #31975
    #41795
    #42602 ***
    #52554
    #58844
    #63532
    #64877
    #68012
    #69224
    #71779
    #72288
    #73158 ***
    #79693
    #81016 ***
    #81391
    #85649 ***
    #86783
    #86949 ***
    #88782
    #88909
    #90139 ***
    #96924
    #99673
  • Member
    I would be curious to see how many moves you use to solve #73158, I literally had to use
    hundreds of moves (304 to be precise).
  • edited February 24 Member, Beta Tester
    #73158.....I managed it in 176 moves. I could probably improve on that as I saw duplicated and unnecessary moves when I ran back through it to count them.
    I really need to have a PGS holiday, or better still a real one. I have only had a handful of headaches in my entire life, (lucky me), but I've had an irritating low-key one practically non-stop for at least three weeks. Could be down to eye strain playing this for hours on end. Busy researching the far north west of Scotland, in particular Inchnadamph and Applecross areas. As soon as I think the snow will have gone at ground levels I think we'll be off.
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  • Member
    The snow cover here in central Minnesota is gone- temps have been much above normal for the last week, although
    snowstorm just missed us yesterday (12 inches in SE MN).
    I usually stop playing after an hour or so, get moving and that keeps the strain to a minimum.

    Post some more on your visit to NW Scotland.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    Yes Please, Scotland and Ireland is very interesting to me. My best friend is from Ireland. and he tells me a lot about it.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    Looks like this is going to have to wait. The areas I particularly fancy going to are very remote. I found two small hotels but further research last night disclosed that neither open until April. No pubs nor restaurants either. Even finding a shop or somewhere to buy fuel is well nigh impossible.
    Looks like we may land up going across to Loch Lomond (about two hours away). My next destination from there was going to be Inchnadamph, over 6 hours drive further north. The more I think about it the remote roads across the region would only ever get cleared of snow by improving weather conditions. Otherwise they would get little or no attention for months.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    I know I've posted this before but it's such a good song. Do you ever get tired of hearing it, Richard?

  • edited February 26 Member, Beta Tester
    It's a decent song that's known across the English-speaking world Ken. I quite like it. The Loch is splendid if you avoid the height of the tourist season and the legions of holidaymakers going for a boat trip on the "Lock". That pronunciation makes me squirm when it's voiced by English TV presenters in documentaries. You'd imagine that they would have had the decency to learn how to pronounce it properly before accepting the role. Good article about the meanings of the lyrics, the Culloden connection highly probable.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonnie_Banks_o'_Loch_Lomond
    We also have Lock Ness >:) home of the monster "Nessie". Jeremy Wade presents an extremely plausible episode of River Monsters in which he convinced me that the monster was, still is, and will continue to be rare Greenland Sharks. He spoke to locals who had see "it" frequently and described seeing what looked like a large upturned rowing-boat.
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jeremy+wade+loch+ness
  • Member, Beta Tester
    68289 is doing my head in. Are you absolutely sure it's winnable with your restrictions Larry? I can get it to 15 and no further. What is your top score for it and its running mate?
  • Member
    Here is the list provided by Dr. Tom for the worryback winners.

    Freecell; any card may start a pile.
    8 work piles, 0 temp cells.

    #38016: A winner.
    151 moves.

    #68289: A winner.
    123 moves.

    There were 27 other ‘worryback winners’ in the #1 - #100,000 range
    (which I was able to solve from the list following the zero freecell,
    single-move rules).

    Without worryback there are 207/100,000 so worryback adds about
    14% more winners.

    I have to assume that those two # are correct and we just are not seeing
    the proper moves. My scores match yours.

    I got this list about 9 years ago from Dr. Tom so I could try and contact him
    for the solutions, or just leave it as a frustrating challenge.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    I'm not particularly bothered about seeing solutions Larry. I cannot see how it's possible to keep overlooking moves we've not tried before. Curious why you chose to post those two games in particular.
  • Member
    Those were the two games that I could not solve from the list I mentioned that needs worryback
    in order to solve- zero freecells, single moves (like the PGS game Bucket). The other 27 I was
    able to solve. I will give it a try and contact Dr. Holroyd.
  • Member
    Dr. Tom came through with the solutions to #38016 and #68289. I am posting early partials,
    so I think you can bring them home from these. Remember no use of freecells and ample
    use of worryback.
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    FreeCell_38016p.pgs
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    FreeCell_68289p.pgs
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  • Member, Beta Tester
    Thanks Larry. Got the first one very quickly. The other is far more difficult in my opinion. I get annoyed with this format for Freecell. I tend to click on cards to move them into a space only to later find out during undoing that I couldn't have made the moves without utilising cells. Something as simple as moving two cards from one column into a space is not possible unless you use a cell. I am working on a mental picture a few moves ahead where I am going to move A then B then C then D etc. I find it highly frustrating when I discover that my forward planning is flawed.
  • Member
    Richard,

    I think in this set of rules with no freecells, you need to always look for the worryback option. Even having seen the solutions many times,
    I probably would still make the same wrong decisions and be stymied.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    Me too. Our brains have been imprinted with how we would tackle an ordinary difficult Freecell deal, but by having no Freecells it is a totally different ballgame.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    as far as I am concerned I think it is a completely different game, if no freecells then you can not call it FREECELL
  • Member
    Maybe something like Coke zero or Pepsi free.
  • Member, Beta Tester
    How about PaddedCell? :)
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