| Author |
Message |
Nadeshda
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 11:23 am: | |
I just looked at the top scores to find out if this game is winnable at all. No person seems to have won but the total says that there were to wins. How can this be? |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 268
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
Only those players that have played 50 games or more show up in the list, but all players (including those with less than 50 games played) are added to the totals. So someone who has played less than 50 games has won it. |
Nadeshda
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 9:15 am: | |
Thank you  |
Peg Mueller (Tzrnpeg)
Advanced Solitaire Player
Username: Tzrnpeg
Post Number: 60
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 8:52 pm: | |
The rules for Forwards & Backwards say that the game is "Mostly Luck". Can anyone tell me why it isn't ALL LUCK? Is there anything I can do to change the outcome of a game? |
Pauline Mueller (Likescards300)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Likescards300
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
I do not like to spend my time on games that
depend on luck to win. I feel more satisfied
with games of skill.
Polly. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 11
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 8:31 am: | |
Scots are known to be reluctant to concede defeat so I'm pressing on doggedly with this game. Recorded 15,000+ games but many more didn't register as there was no move available. Perhaps if I was playing with a straight deck I'd have more luck. Can anyone explain how 75% of the games start with at least one black 7 on screen? No, you can't. |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 1099
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 12:20 pm: | |
Richard,
"Can anyone explain how 75% of the games start with at least one black 7 on screen? No, you can't."
Actually, I can. A quick calculation of the probability of at least 1 black seven coming up at random in the tableau of Forwards and Backwards indicates that the probability of this happening at random is 76.9% - so it happening 75% of the time is pretty much exactly right!
[For math nerds, the calculation is C(4,1) times C(103,19) divided by C(104,20).]
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Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 5:10 pm: | |
Hi Thomas,
Don't profess to being a maths nerd but am sceptical and somewhat cynical by nature. Did a further "test sample" of 150 games, all of which had a minimum of one 7 on screen. During this I noticed another anomaly and was obliged to play a further 150 games sample. What is the mathematical improbability of none of these being without a 7, and what odds do you think a bookmaker would give me for getting a seven of clubs in the bottom right hand corner 46 times out of 150?
Hugely enjoy PGS (even Forwards & Backwards).
Regards, Richard. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1122
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 5:17 am: | |
To Gregg Seelhoff,
Hi Gregg, I was just reading your maths re Freecell games. Quite fascinating. It did however jog my memory re a very old post of my own regarding Forwards and Backwards. I still maintain that there has been a programming error with this game. It is mathematically impossible for the 7C to recur in the bottom right hand corner of the tableau so frequently as it does.
Just try a sample of say 100 games and I'm sure you'll be obliged to agree. I've had it appearing there in four consecutive randomly selected game numbers. I stopped playing F&B when I reached 30,000 games and had a 7 in the tableau in each of them.
Eagerly awaiting your diagnosis. Thanks, Richard. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1123
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 6:07 am: | |
I couldn't resist retrying this myself. I got 23% with the first 100, and 25% with the second. I left school a long time ago, but even with the limited mathematical capability I still retain, I can work out that the odds of any one card landing on any one pile is one in 52, roughly 2%. |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
Richard,
I looked at the game and it does appear that a 7 comes up more than expected by random.
However, it is not a programming error. There is an omission in the help file for the rules of the game. I went back to the original rules of the game, which are from an 1898 book by Harris Dick. It turns out there is a rule that says that if the original twenty cards dealt out do not contain a 7, a card is removed and replaced with a 7. The way it is programmed is that this will be the last card. So you will see a 7 in the last position if there are no other 7's in the tableau (of course sometimes there *is* a 7 there randomly).
There is a reason for this rule - it keeps the game from being blocked by making sure that a 7 can always be played on another 7. Otherwise, if there are no 7's in the tableau when a 7 appears in the stock the game would be lost, meaning that any tableau with no 7's in it would always be a lost game (this is because the only card you can play a 7 on is another 7).
So the reason a 7 appears in the last position often is the keep the game from being even more impossible than it already is - the 7 gives you at least a chance of winning.
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Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 2:39 pm: | |
Thanks Thomas, that does explain things clearly. I am particularly fond of your statement that this "gives you at least a chance of winning", but I would argue that you have two chances..... a dog's chance, and no chance. I think that this game may have be devised as an alternative to capital punishment. It's not going to be the death of me however, as I've no intention of playing it again. Thanks anyway.
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Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 4:07 am: | |
My final thoughts on Forwards & Backwards is that Harris Dick didn't think very logically. There is exactly the same chance of a game being blocked with the absence of any of the numbers. 7+7 is no more a special pair than 8+6 or 10+4.
Perhaps you could devise a more modern and sensible version whereby any missing number is added to the tableau, and one of the duplicates removed. The number of blocked games in F&B is crazy.
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Larry Dale (Lars)
Solitaire Player
Username: Lars
Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 8:08 am: | |
A Harry Dick invented Forwards and Backwards. What are the odds of that? |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1128
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 11:08 am: | |
There is a response just screaming out at me, but it's just a bit too risque for the forum. |
Gregg Seelhoff (Seelhoff)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Seelhoff
Post Number: 300
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 11:34 pm: | |
>To Gregg Seelhoff,
>Hi Gregg,
Hi, Richard!
Uh... what Thomas said.
>My final thoughts on Forwards & Backwards is that Harris Dick didn't think very logically. There is exactly the same chance of a game being blocked with the absence of any of the numbers. 7+7 is no more a special pair than 8+6 or 10+4.
Actually, this is not entirely true. The absence of a Seven is a "sufficient" condition to a game being unwinnable, whereas any pair of unmatched cards has to have both ranks absent to necessarily be a lost game. Since there are sixteen cards of each other pair, and only eight Sevens, the latter is more likely to occur. That said, there must be at least one card from each pair in the tableau for a deal to stand any chance of being winnable; only a 7 is guaranteed.
I will note that Forwards and Backwards is one of the games I have never won (and I never use winning numbers from the forum, so please do not bother ). In my book, it is a "hint game", one in which the optimal strategy is simply holding down the 'Hint' keys and letting the program play until stuck. If it ever gets past the Forwards part of the game, then I will have a candidate game that I will play in earnest, but that has yet to happen for me.
I seriously dislike this kind of game, but Pretty Good Solitaire is intended to be comprehensive; nobody has ever claimed that one will like every included game.
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Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 4:23 am: | |
Hi Gregg,
This is my final final thought (posibly).
The absence of any number makes the game unwinnable. It doesn't matter how many eights are in the tableau if there is not a six, and there is as much chance of an eight being missing as there is of a seven being missing. You don't need to have both components of a pair absent before that pair is unplayable. Therefore I'm sticking to my guns.
I dislike very few games in PGS but that is no reason why they should not be included. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1133
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 7:45 am: | |
Plink! That was the penny dropping. You're correct Gregg. My apologies are in the post. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1854
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 7:58 am: | |
I was contacted by email by another player who wishes to remain anonymous. I was asked whether I thought that the person at the top of the leader board for this game was a CHEAT and a LIAR. As I appear at the bottom of those stats with an entirely honest submission, I will leave it up to you to guess what I replied.
Any comments will be addressed when we return from our holiday. |
Gregg Seelhoff (Seelhoff)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Seelhoff
Post Number: 307
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 8:42 am: | |
>I was contacted by email by another player who wishes to remain anonymous. I was asked whether I thought that the person at the top of the leader board for this game was a CHEAT and a LIAR.
I cannot say whether or not these statistics are dishonestly obtained, but I will observe that this person has reported scores for 30 games, and he has the #1 score for all but one of them (where he is ranked #2). That would be extraordinary, as would (for example) the claim of winning Interchange 56 games in a row, without a loss.
This is why I like the idea of climb mode...
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Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 11:46 am: | |
I think I'd better clear this up.
My reply? I am not the best person to ask as I played/endured over 30000 games of Forwards & Backwards before I noticed that there is an empty cell I could have used. Duh! With this in mind, I will play a few more before I express my opinion. Like Gregg I am somewhat sceptical of many of the stats where the same small number of names keep cropping up.
A suggestion for many of the most difficult games would be that the player/s should be asked to submit their winning numbers. A geat many of us are curious to learn which numbers conquered the "unwinnable six". |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1856
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
Dear me! Old age doesn't come itself! The empty cell doesn't come into play until you complete the "forwards" part. I didn't manage to overlook it 30000+ times. Phew! |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 590
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 5:44 pm: | |
Ok. I just noticed a high scorer in this game. Seems to me there is mischief afoot. Ken do you have any guesses. |
Ken Millar (Tpa_ken)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Tpa_ken
Post Number: 619
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 6:24 pm: | |
Tom's fellow countryman? |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1877
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:51 am: | |
If that was the case, could if be argued that there is no real change at the top then? Perhaps its the same guy who made both the submissions. Whoever it is should be ashamed! Imagine posting phoney stats! Some people have got no shame! If I was #2 in that table I would just sit down for a few minutes and win me some more. It's such an easy game to win anyway. Let's hear it for Tom! Give the man some encouragement! |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 593
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 12:41 pm: | |
Go Tom! Play another 100 or so hands. You don't want to be #2 to some upstart. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1881
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 12:44 pm: | |
Yeah Tom! You go for it! Post your winning numbers too. There's a good man. |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 595
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:53 pm: | |
I can't count to fourteen. And don't really want to. Ken and Richard you have a lot more patience than I. The first game I tried was a loser. Perfect score in 50 games. Bull bullets! |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1882
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:58 pm: | |
Try taking off one of your socks. |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 596
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 4:05 pm: | |
Socks? I live at the beach, remember. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 1883
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 4:19 pm: | |
OK, flippers. |
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