Goodsol.com - Pretty Good Solitaire

What is the difference between Carlton and Milligan Harp Solitaire?

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  • Yes indeed, I suppose Scorpion has its merits. I should give it another try. Strategy ... Travellers Clock ... two more games I don't know yet ... there's just so many :O I will check them out.

    Sorry, but please allow me to shortly get back to Josephine / Forty Bandits: in the online version on goodsol.com (https://www.goodsol.com/play/josephine) Josephine also shows all waste pile cards as Richard & BP348 describe above. So does this mean it is actually Forty Bandits i.s.o. Josephine? Also, since cards are turned over onto the waste one at the time, isn't it basically the same thing? The user will have seen every card that was discarded to the waste, and if he/she has excellent memory or a pencil+paper the games end up being the same, right? ... or do you mean that cards on the stock+waste are visible right from the start of the game in Forty Bandits?

    I suppose that exactly the same symmetry occurs in Forty Thieves vs. Cadran. Since I hear people speak of Forty Thieves in this thread, and not of Cadran, can I conclude that you professionals usually play it without seeing the waste?

    C

  • Bastiko clearly wants nothing to do with Ken,Larry and Mike in the US. 😄. KenLarryMike .... KLM ..... Royal Dutch Airlines in the Netherlands ..... ditto Utrecht.

  • With the COVID cases we have here, I wouldn't want anything to do with us either!

    Richard, did we ever figure out whether Paul migrated over here?

  • Most of the folks who have answered questions here do have a good idea of what cards have been played. So if they try the hand again. They have a good idea of what to try differently. I used to be better at it than I am now. But never as good as some.

  • >Currently what I am trying to wrap my mind around is coming up with an algorithm to recognize when it is game-over.

    From a technical standpoint, you use a transposition table, which is a cache of previously evaluated positions. Moving a card to another position gives a new position, but moving it back to the original position aborts the search because that position is already in the table. This prevents loops in the search (and was certainly used by Deep Blue). If every move from a position leads to a previous position or a loss, then the game is unwinnable from that position. It is actually easier in Solitaire, since there is no concept of a draw through repeated positions.

    >To the best of my knowledge none of us have ever met in person. The possible exception to that could be Tom and Gregg both of whom work in development and support of Goodsol Solitaire products.

    Tom and I have known each other for more than 20 years, and I have done work for him on Goodsol Development products for more than 18 years. We have met in person several times, but I don't think we have done so in the past decade. 😲

    >Usually they are too busy counting their money though.

    Oh, were that only the case. 😔

    >The version of Klondike that I originally got to learn all those years ago when it was still played with actual cards instead of with keyboards and computer screens, has three passes through the stock, with three cards turned over onto the waste when dealing. When there were fewer than three cards left on the stock pile one would go cyclically through the waste+stock, i.e. turn the waste around, place the remaining stock cards on top, and only then turn over three cards to the (now empty) waste. However, in all card games on goodsol with a waste I see that remaining cards on the stock are simply turned over onto the waste before starting a new pass through the stock. Is this the original and officially recognized procedure, or just a choice in this software implementation?

    Interesting, deep question! When I play Klondike with a physical deck of cards (and I still do), I use this "wraparound" stock/waste deal technique, and I have ever since I learned the game when I was about 5 years old. The answer to your question is that it is an implementation choice, and Pretty Good Solitaire uses the "standard" method used by almost all Solitaire software programs. (In all my years in the industry, I have only once seen a program that implements the wraparound deal, and that was back in the 1980s.)

    I have long considered suggesting the wraparound deal as an alternative implementation (but do not recall if I actually have). The differences are interesting: with the wraparound deal, the critical issue is remembering not to allow the waste to end with a multiple of 3 cards, while with the standard deal, it is critical to play a card as early as possible to "shake up" the stock. Wraparound deals where the waste does not end in a multiple of 3 cards gives theoretical access to any one (or two) of the cards in the stock/waste; although a limited number of redeals makes that less useful. On the other hand, the standard 3-card deal gives optimized [*] access to cards in the stock/waste by playing all cards to the waste, undoing once, and then undoing until a legal play is available; likewise, however, limited redeals prevents this approach, too.

    [*] This is slightly simplified, and it does not guarantee the best outcome; it simply decreases the chances of missing a playable card. If a playable card is discovered that is effectively the same card (i.e., same color and rank) as one earlier in the waste, then using the earlier card is statistically the better play.

    Amazingly, I actually spend a lot of time thinking about these things. 😀

    Fun fact about me: I generally listen to my music collection while I work. I currently have it on random play and, out of more than 9000 songs, it played my only copy of 'Hey Joe' by Jimi Hendrix while I was writing this reply!

    Gregg 🐵

  • Seelhoff ... with such a name may I conclude that you are from a similar part of Europe? (... addendum: oh, wait, you signed with Gregg, that sounds more Anglo-Saxon ;))

    Transposition table! Super! Thank you for mentioning this! I will go and check it out. Wonderful opportunity to learn something new.

    I tend to prefer the wraparound deal for Klondike when it is limited to three passes. For Klondike with infinite passes the difference in experience is probably much smaller indeed. I am just surprised about the fact of its absence. It seems like from an implementation point of view offering the option of wraparound deals should be trivial (just as easy/hard as the current deal-remaining-cards) ... except applying it universally for all games with a waste could be a bit tricky, for instance for games with a Gold Rush type of deal ... So I was wondering if the absence of a wraparound deal option simply had something to do with not having to worry about those type of cases then ...

    BTW, I've heard a lot of JH's work, mostly during my studies/phd (not in person of course, he passed before I was born). In my opinion his best work is on "Band of Gypsys". Please go and listen to it! ... But if you do, don't put it on shuffle. Listen in the natural order. Joe is also on there, but to me the initial punch of Who Knows is what blows me away each and every time. Classic!

    Still ... I believe that { Forty Thieves == Cadran }, { Forty Bastards == Josephine } and { San Juan Hill == Kettle Hill } due to the player having seen all the cards while dismissing them to the waste pile, right? Or is there someone that disagrees? Am I missing something here?

    C

  • Correction: Joe is not on Band of Gypsys ... I got it confused with Machine Gun ... oeioei, what a mistake. Still, it is one of the best records out there. Everything just comes together exactly right ... and to think that it was just thrown out there to get rid of a contractual dispute with the record label :O

  • Jimi ! What a talent. He could have died in virtual obscurity in the States had he not been brought to the UK. His first gig was as a support artist for the best group of all time .... Cream. Eric Clapton was a kindred spirit who liked to play the hell out of music. He had to be carried on stage and played one entire concert lying on his back. I had "live" LP's that only had two tracks on them because they just wouldn't finish them until they'd had enough.. Ably assisted by Scottish nutcase Jack Bruce and the madman Ginger Baker. His drum solo Toad lasted over five minutes .They'll never be equalled.

    My favourite Jimi Hedrix tracks would be ... Purple Haze. Voodoo Chile, All along the watchtower and Hey Joe.

    My Cream favourites include, Badge, Sunshine of your love,, Strange brew, I feel free, Spoonful and In a white room.

    Best US group was undoubtedly The Doors.

    It wasn't until you mentioned your 9000 track music playlist Gregg, that I started to wonder just how many tracks we've heard so far in our life times. It amazes me that I can usually identify who sang songs I'd heard several decades ago. For the life of me I can't remember what I had for lunch a couple of days ago. Okay Mick belt it out,"What a drag it is getting old". Mind you, the alternative is worse.😊

  • edited July 24

    >Ably assisted by Scottish nutcase Jack Bruce and the madman Ginger Baker.

    I had the privilege to see Jack Bruce live when he played in Ringo Starr's (5th) All-Starr Band, in a lineup with Ringo (obviously), Todd Rundgren, Gary Brooker (Procol Harem), Simon Kirke (Bad Company), and Timmy Cappello (an amazing multi-instrumentalist). If I recall correctly, the Cream songs they did were White Room, I Feel Free, and SWLABR. His deep voice was haunting.

    I am just a bit too young to have caught many of the acts that were around when I was very young: The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors.

    >My favourite Jimi Hedrix tracks would be ... Purple Haze. Voodoo Chile, All along the watchtower and Hey Joe.

    Mine would (additionally) be Foxy Lady, Little Wing, and Wind Cries Mary.

    >My Cream favourites include, Badge, Sunshine of your love,, Strange brew, I feel free, Spoonful and In a white room.

    I love Badge, and the story behind its naming is great. For those who do not know it, Badge was recorded without a title, and George Harrison (a.k.a., L'Angelo Misterioso) wrote track notes that were illegible to Eric Clapton, who misread a note about the "bridge" of the song to say "badge", and the name stuck.

    >Best US group was undoubtedly The Doors.

    This is subjective, of course, and The Doors are great, but I would probably rank a few US groups higher. I have 3 British groups in my top 5, along with Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band, and Blue Öyster Cult. Other US groups that I might consider for my top 10 (if I had one 😉) would be The Temptations, The Four Tops, Chicago, Simon & Garfunkel, The Eagles, and Creedence Clearwater Revival, but The Doors would definitely be in there.

    >It wasn't until you mentioned your 9000 track music playlist Gregg, that I started to wonder just how many tracks we've heard so far in our life times. It amazes me that I can usually identify who sang songs I'd heard several decades ago. For the life of me I can't remember what I had for lunch a couple of days ago. Okay Mick belt it out,"What a drag it is getting old". Mind you, the alternative is worse.😊

    Indeed. To invoke another British band, my sister-in-law once got really angry at my mother-in-law for saying, "I hope I die before I get old."

    To round this off, my playlist just presented Let It Grow, my very favorite Eric Clapton song. 🙂

  • edited July 25

    >Seelhoff ... with such a name may I conclude that you are from a similar part of Europe? (... addendum: oh, wait, you signed with Gregg, that sounds more Anglo-Saxon ;))

    Well, I am really from the United States; none of my ancestors were born outside the USA since the 1800s. My great-grandfather on my mother's side was born in England, but moved here as a young man (and he passed long before I was born). On my father's side, the Seelhoffs came here (to Michigan, from Germany) around 1840 (just after statehood), but I can trace one branch of my lineage back to the Mayflower.

    I have never been to Europe. 🙁

  • I like your choice of bands, Gregg! (especially Chicago and CCR)

  • Any conversation regarding music could rumble on as long as music itself.

    I nominated Cream and the Doors principally as it was they who broke the mould . The instant they hit the airwaves you knew that this was something new and different. As you point out Gregg, there have been many great groups (in particular) on both sides of the pond. Although I couldn't disagree with any of your other nominations it was nice to see Blue Oyster Cult getting a mention . My exhaustive LP collection included some of their albums.

    UK graffiti back in the day, pronounced "Clapton is God". I had every album he featured on back as far as John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, Delaney and Bonnie, Derek and the Dominos, Blindfaith and everything thereafter. "Badge" is as good as they get. I'd not heard how it originated. Thanks.

    Best UK groups would have to include, the Rolling Stones, Queen, The Who (whom you plugged), and a particular favourite of mine, Eric Burdon and the Animals. House of the Rising Sun is immortal but Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood, I'm Crying, and We'Got To Get Out Of This Place, are equally good.

    There are obviously a great many US bands we could mention, but the one that I can never forget is Dr.Hook. I saw them live in Aberdeen on what was their final tour. The lead singer asked anyone in the audience who'd not seen them before to shout out. A few did. When asked why, one wag in the audience replied with, "We wanted to see if you were still as bad". Despite the fact that there were "No Photographs" signs everywhere, one female fan was seen sneaking down the centre aisle with a camera. The lead singer ushered her nearer, stopped the music, and all of them collected on centre stage and posed for photos from a crowd of others who'd been too scared to previously. What's that you're saying about Memories, Barbara? ☺️

  • Gregg Seelhoff: 1840 Germany->Michigan. That is the Germany connection that I was anticipating. If there would have been one "f" less my guess would have been the Netherlands ;) ... Impressive that you know so much about your lineage ... Beyond my grandparents I know nothing :O ...

    RichardScotland: Were you around to identify the changes these bands brought about when they happened, or is it all hearsay? Must have been a special time. Of Clapton I tend to like the solo stuff (After Derek and the D's) quite a bit less than the more power-blues style from before ... In your UK list I am missing the more obscure early Humble Pie (e.g. Live at the Whisky A-Go-Go) and Man (e.g. The 1999 Party Tour), from the US list I am missing Zappa, Allman Brothers, SRV, Albert (King/Collins), etcetera, etcetera, ....

    ... Anyway, the discussion is spinning a bit off-topic. That is fine, but I just hope that people notice that there still is a question about Forty-Thieves buried in there somewhere ;)

    Cheers,

    C

  • edited July 25

    A phrase well used in the X-Files was "The Truth Is Out There", 

    Consulting the rules for each game revealed the following.

    Incidentally, there is no such game as Forty Bastards, although many a player may have referred to it as such. 😂

    I've been on the planet since 1947. My parents would perhaps have been acquainted with the top songs of that year, namely,

    1 "Near You" Francis Craig

    2 "Peg o' My Heart" The Harmonicats

    3 "Heartaches" Ted Weems

    4 "Linda" Ray Noble Orchestra and Buddy Clark

    It's possible that some of them may still be alive and sheltering from C 19 somewhere, but I don't know ..... or care. 😀

    Okay. May as well finish the job.

    Francis Craig died in 1966. Jerry Murad of the Harmonicats croaked in 1996. Ted Weems gave up the ghost in 1963. Ray Noble reached his expiry date in 1978 but his pal only made it to 1949, just two years after their hit song. They were all American but I'm willing to wager that none of them made in into Gregg's playlist.😫

    I believe that "Peg o' My Heart" is about vampires.😕

  • edited July 25

    oh gees ... "Forty Bastards" .... I didn't even notice my mistake until you pointed it out ... must have been a mental blend of Forty Bandits and Inglorious Bastards ... Just now I was right in time to correct the typo in "Farty Bandits" in the previous sentence ...

    Yes, I saw the description saying that the only difference is that the waste is visible, however in my mental projection this really is no difference except a visual display one. I was wondering if this is just my wrong interpretation of the sentence, or if there was a more fundamental difference such as being able to see the entire stock sequence right from the start (i.e. all cards pre-dealt to the waste with only the top one available for play). I now conclude that this is not the case. You see, I could not verify in actual gameplay, since I am on ubuntu like someone else who posted recently .... BTW, checking some other online versions I see that the details of Forty Thieves vary anyway. I suppose that the rules are not etched in stone ...

    Ok, let me then ask this question: any contemporary bands that you think are good? Really contemporary, I mean, not bands performing today that are still sailing on the success of three decades ago ...

    C

    ps.

    Perhaps an idea: Farty Thieves = Forty Thieves with all cards from the stock pre-dealt to the waste with only the top one available for play (but all waste cards in visible gallery mode of course, otherwise it would not make any sense). Farty Bandits same symmetry with Forty Bandits ... :O ... just kiddin' you guys ;)

    addendum: hhmm ... actually, now that I think about it some more the "Farty" variations are also not essentially different from the "Forty" versions ... In "Forty" one could just go through the waste one-by-one immediately after the initial deal and end up at the "Farty" starting condition ... (that's the pitfall of thinking about these games without actually having played any of them yet ;) )

  • edited July 25

    As mentioned previously, when cards are played separately onto a waste pile where you can see what has already been discarded, you get a better idea regarding which buried cards you'd be best advised to try and manoeuvre your way back to if possible rather than blindly accepting identical ones from the tableau if they have later become available. It's a subtle difference but an advantage none the less. It also gives the player the opportunity to play whichever variety he or she prefers. I'd select the exposed waste versions ever time.

    The rules for most games, including those you've mentioned, clearly state that the Stock plays one card at a time onto the Waste. It would make games horrifically difficult if, apart from those dealt to the tableau, the remaining cards were all dealt to the Waste. All of the aces could be buried in the waste pile for example.

    The only time I hear music these days is accidentally. I rarely choose to do so deliberately, and if I did it would be from groups I liked from decades ago. I have tinnitus in both ears, and as if that wasn't annoying enough, they are each playing different musical notes.

    Until I Googled it a minute ago I thought that Ubuntu was probably an African intestinal disease that is being spread by farty bandits. 😭

  • "Until I Googled it a minute ago I thought that Ubuntu was probably an African intestinal disease that is being spread by farty bandits."

    LOL! Sharp one that one 😂👍️

  • Tom and/or Gregg, Why was this moved from the category "Miscellaneous" to "General"? I don't care but I was just curious...

  • Because this is about solitaire. General is for solitaire discussions, Miscellaneous is for non-solitaire discusssions.

  • I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

  • edited July 29

    >Best UK groups would have to include, the Rolling Stones, Queen, The Who (whom you plugged), and a particular favourite of mine, Eric Burdon and the Animals. House of the Rising Sun is immortal but Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood, I'm Crying, and We'Got To Get Out Of This Place, are equally good.

    Interesting... Your list does not mention any of the three UK bands in my Top 5: The Beatles, The Moody Blues, and Pink Floyd. Led Zeppelin would be in my Top 10 (if I had one 😉).

    I enjoy the Animals, too, including all of the aforementioned songs, but I would also add Sky Pilot as a particular favorite. I saw War live, but not with Eric Burdon (though Spill the Wine still rocked). My short stint in LA allowed me to see Sir Van Morrison on St. Patrick's Day a few years back, in something like the 7th row, dead center. Great.

    >There are obviously a great many US bands we could mention, but the one that I can never forget is Dr.Hook.

    I love Dr. Hook, and I discovered them at a time (in adolescence) where Sylvia's Mother really, really hit close to home. I was living in Houston, not far from Galveston at the time, so even that line scored. Did Shel Silverstein tour with them?

    >Ok, let me then ask this question: any contemporary bands that you think are good? Really contemporary, I mean, not bands performing today that are still sailing on the success of three decades ago ...

    It turns out that "really contemporary" for me is still a decade or two old, unless we are talking about blues, where I have some contemporary favorites, but they do not get the same kind of exposure. In rock, I like Barenaked Ladies, No Doubt, Spin Doctors, and I particularly love The Bridge by Red Hot Chili Peppers. (See, all still decades old.)

    Here's a song I really enjoy, by Root Doctor:


  • Gregg, how did you get that video to appear like that? In the old forum, when I posted a link to a youtube video, it would post like that but in the new forum when I post a link, it posts as a link.

    P.S. Speaking of War, don't forget my favorite song of theirs: All Day Music.

  • edited July 29

    >Gregg, how did you get that video to appear like that? In the old forum, when I posted a link to a youtube video, it would post like that but in the new forum when I post a link, it posts as a link.

    I simply pasted in the YouTube link; I did nothing special. The forum pulled up the preview in real time, before I posted that comment.

    Edit: It looks like it does not start retrieving the preview until you hit 'Enter' at the end of the line, and it takes a few seconds. I tested your link (from another thread) and it did not work immediately, but it did switch to a preview a couple seconds after I hit 'Enter'. (Of course, it could be that my account is "special", too. 😉)

  • Gregg, my list of UK groups "would have to include" the ones I mentioned, but would certainly not exclude any of the UK ones you mentioned. I used to have"Stairway to Heaven" on a Zepp album. If only I could remember its name. 😉 I also had it on a "live" album but it was nowhere near as good. My favourites would also definitely include Jethro Tull, The Kinks, 10 CC, The Shadows, and Dexy's Midnight Runners.

    Music is very subjective and my mood took me from Ray Charles, The Carpenters, Roy Orbison, Mama Cass, to AC/DC and Deep Purple. Oh, and this guy, I just love.


  • Ken, re videos, have you tried "Abracadabra"? (Not the Steve Miller Band version).

    Look for the small tool at the bottom corner of the messages before you hit "Post comment" It's the small square with the '< '> inside it. Embed your link there.

  • Speaking of music, this one's for Richard!


  • Thanks Ken, I bow to your superior knowledge of the drugs scene 😵 I'd never heard the song nor what it refers to. It reached #42 in the UK charts.

  • Oh, that explains it. It made it to #8 over here. Btw, it's been a while since we have a parody, so I found a good one for you guys:


  • >My favourites would also definitely include Jethro Tull, The Kinks, 10 CC, The Shadows, and Dexy's Midnight Runners.

    Good choices, which are also revealing about the differences between opposite sides of the Atlantic. Jethro Tull and The Kinks are excellent, and I have albums of each in my collection. Dexy's Midnight Runners sang Come On Eileen, which was my wife's favo(u)rite song, but that was their only hit here (and the only one of their songs I have heard). 10CC had only two real hits here, although both (I'm Not in Love, and Things We Do for Love) are excellent (and the latter I need to acquire), similar to the way Status Quo was big over there, but are a One Hit Wonder here (Pictures of Matchstick Men was their only hit). More to the point, The Shadows are completely unheard of over here; I had to look them up (wondering if maybe you were shortening Shadows of Knight). Cliff Richard, for his massive worldwide success, only had minor success here, and I suspect that most people in the US have never heard of him. (I have his two biggest hits, Devil Woman, #6 in 1976, and We Don't Talk Anymore, #7 in 1979.)

    >Music is very subjective and my mood took me from Ray Charles, The Carpenters, Roy Orbison, Mama Cass, to AC/DC and Deep Purple. Oh, and this guy, I just love.

    Yup. I enjoy all of the above (and have all of them in my collection), and I was lucky enough to see Little Richard live in 1997 (when he was 64). He sort of hobbled slowly on stage in a big, bulky, but flamboyant coat, and positioned himself to (apparently) sit down on the piano bench. Just when you are thinking, "Well, he is in his 60s, after all," he throws off the coat and kicks the piano bench backwards in a single movement, and begins ripping it up in his inimitable style wearing a sequined jumpsuit. The show was fantastic!

    Now, having contributed majorly to this massive thread drift, I think I should start a new thread for this (non-Solitaire) conversation. 😉

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